Hive Needs A Permanent HBD Vault

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Time vaults are something we discussed on a number of occasions as relating to Hive Bonds. The basic idea is to have a vault where HBD can be moved into, similar to the Hive savings option. However, this would have a longer lock up period, say a year, and carry a different interest rate.

This is another step in the evolution of base layer fixed income options on Hive. As stated in the other article, this would allow for layer 2 innovation with bonds being created, represented by a token. This ultimately could serve as collateral for a lending program, all tied back to the base layer of Hive.

It would provide transparency we do not see in the existing financial system. Also, we have an element where everyone knows the duration, amount, and interest rate on the underlying asset.

Here is where blockchain can provide enormous value.

Now we will take our mental modeling a step further to discuss a permanent HBD time vault.

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HBD Creation Center

Over the two days we covered a couple of ideas.

The first was Ragnarok. In this article we discuss the idea of using HBD as the centerpiece for a prize pool. The basic concept was that HBD is used for tournament fees and the purchase of in-game assets. Whatever comes in is put into HBD savings and left there.

What this does is create a growing amount of principal that is used to fund the ongoing prizes. For all practical purposes, the HBD is still in the circulating supply but it is locked up.

A one year time vault would also benefit this.

Our second article covered the idea of creating a Hive lottery. This would utilize the same idea. HBD from the sale of "tickets" would enter savings and never exit. The interest would be used to pay out the winners. Again, over time, as more tickets are sold, the HBD locked up would grow. This would translate into an expanding prize pool each month.

Essentially, projects like this would be HBD creation centers. The coins coming in end up creating more HBD, expanding the money supply. Yet, the net result is actually a reduction since we have the original coins "locked" up.

Except they are not.

While projects can say the HBD is not going to exit, the reality is that, they can be removed at any time. Hence, the blockchain (and community) cannot trust them to remain in that state.

Here is where a permanent time vault enters.

Permanent HBD Vault

The idea here is to remove the option of removal.

By establishing a permanent time vault, we are effectively creating a "burn" option yet having the HBD still providing benefit to the ecosystem.

Under the two previous examples, the HBD that comes in is moved to the permanent vault. This prevents it from ever being removed. To the blockchain, it is akin to a burn since the coins are no longer in circulating supply. They are locked up forever.

The key is that they still have value to the ecosystem. Each month, interest is paid on the locked HBD. It provides the prize pools as discussed in the two projects, offering liquid HBD to the community. Hence, we have a consistent flow to the money supply.

Another factor is that, since HBD is debt, this is no longer a threat to the ecosystem. It is offering a benefit to applications and games while also removing the downside.

We also see a steady, growing creation of HBD. This would hopefully mirror the growth rate of the ecosystem, one that is focused upon integrating HBD as the stablecoin used for transactions.

The rate should be permanent, aligning with the overall targeted growth of the system. Of course, having the ability to alter the rates in the other vaults allows the witnesses to adjust based upon the ever changing circumstances.

Community Driven Initiatives

When we see projects that are put together for the benefit of the community, it is helpful to have features that can present value to all. We know the Decentralized Hive Fund (DHF) was set up to provide value to the ecosystem. Anyone involved with Hive benefits from the development that is created through that DAO.

A permanent time vault could offer something similar to all on Hive. As people partake in an unowned project like Ragnarok, the funds raised could be locked away while still generating interest. This benefits the community by establishing a base line supply of HBD while removing the debt threat on the locked coins.

We can think of this idea like public funds. The difference is that we are now dealing with a system where human intervention is removed from the equation. Imagine if they did something like that with Social Security instead of the money simply being placed in the general fund.

With Hive we can do something similar. Any project that is "community" related could utilize this option. Naturally, not all have to use this option. With other time vaults, projects can opt for this concept without permanent lock up. This would simply be another option available in the wallet system.

Once established, then innovation can occur. What are some other ways the community can utilize something like this? That could trigger other ideas of projects that benefit Hive.

This is another addition that could open up even greater possibilities.


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For a locked underlying asset, of course, that would greatly benefit Hive.

In one sense, permanent locking will be very beneficial to the community's stability. On the other hand, the time vault will be the source of a consistent flow of funds to increase the amount of money in circulation, which will enlarge the entire community.

Will it always be a deposit pattern with a fixed amount, duration, and underlying asset interest rate, or will it adjust to follow market movements, @taskmaster4450?

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Depends upon how it is set up. It could be variable like HBD savings is, set by the witnesses or maybe hardcoded as a fixed rate with the adjustability coming from the other vaults.

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I'm also a fan of raising the APR of HBD savings, at least to 25% if not 30%+

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I would prefer it tied to some type of longer commitment, say a year.

Putting HBD in that vault gets a greater return but locks the HBD up for a duration.

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Utilizing the "burn" mechanism to bring value to projects and adding value to the ecosystem while removing the human control over the vault that might develop ideas sounds good to me.
These are possible ideas that might become a reality over time on Hive.

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Reward for adding value to the network like a swap pool between hive/hbd would add more value in a longrun.

Lock away is not how a stablecoin should work, it should be used and be able to trade with very deep markets.

ATM it is impossible to buy 100k at once. pretty shitty.

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That is true but use cases are limited as of now. Yes we need depth, liquidity, infrastructure, and sophistication.

As for the locking away, that is how a baseline is established for creation. At the same time, the community is always free to generate more.

There could be "community" projects like Ragnarok where the housing of HBD in this fashion is ideal.

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(Edited)

Pay to play models that use rate for rewards are nice, but always remember, rates are random as fuck.

Look at current interest votes on it. It can easy destroy microeconomics around it if random votes lower it.

7%, 12% and 20%.

All random numbers. No math behind.

IMO without a very strict rule of changing not worth spending a single second thinking about building with it.

Rewarding a pool with 20% + trading fees would IMO also more efficient.

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I could see the 20% APR being more reasonable in the 1 year lockup which something more liquid would be 10% but doesn't that then cause issues with lump sums becoming available that could be sold and cause a drip in the stable coin price? But then the question is would enough get locked up for the 10% APR increase and it's instead better off how it is now with adjustments to the APR when needed.

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The rates are variable which is going to bring in a lot of questions.

Certainly, there could be a flood of HBD hitting the market with a 1 year lock up as they become due.

Of course, if one locked 20K HBD for a year, earning whatever percent, what are the chances much of that gets reinvested.

We are already seeing that with the HBD savings. Most are just growing the account.

Plus, the goal is to have options with HBD. So, a year from now, perhaps one doesnt sell it but utilizes it.

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Wouldn't it also be possible to put a time duration to it like 1 year or 3 years instead of it being locked permanently? The same with Hive Power can be implemented when it comes to withdrawal, say a certain amount every week for X amount of weeks.

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You could have those but it is for different use cases.

If Ragnarok wants the HBD locked up "forever" a 3 year window still could provide vulnerability. With a permanent vault, this is not the case.

Certainly those others could be options for the everyday user.

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Right. That kind of use case (like a time lock duration) would work for the normal users.

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Are we talking here about HBD controlled and owned by HIVE as an organisation, or by individual investors ?

I don't like the idea of locking HBD on individual investors, because at that point it's not your HBD any more.

Something I would support is having two savings options.

The first would be the "standard" one we have now, with 20% APY and a 3-day unlock.

The second (new) option would be to stake HBD in a similar way to how we stake HP now, with a slightly higher interest rate, but unstaking would be a slow drip-feed over (say) 13 weeks. This would allow investors to take some earnings out, but would be slow enough to not have a significant impact on price stability.

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Users would have the option in their wallet.

The permanent is not going to likely be for individual users since it is not theirs effectively. It is for those projects like Ragnarok which can be considered "community".

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Do you think %20 or more or less interest rate will continue?

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I have no idea. It is not a risk to Hive yet many, since they do not understand how this works believe it is.

Just try to consider how we go from where we are even to 500 million HBD. A circulating supply of half a billion of a currency is nothing.

Of course, the key is to keep growing the ecosystem and the use case of HBD> If that is done, we can easily outpace the 20% APR with Hive growth.

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Stablecoins are a shit. Totally unstable. They collapse see FTX... Stop thinking in dollarterms when you take a look at your crypto portfolio. Crypto is just simple crypto. Buy something nice with it after you have finished your online work. MONEY OF THE INTERNET!

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It is true that pegs never hold that is why value has to but built into the currency.

Stop thinking in dollarterms when you take a look at your crypto portfolio.

Should we stop thinking in terms of kilometers or miles when it comes to distance. This statement shows a lack of understand what a dollar really is.

Buy something nice with it after you have finished your online work. MONEY OF THE INTERNET!

Again, that is wonderful in theory. At what unit? What medium? What are you going to buy and how is it going to be priced?

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This is a hard one for me to wrap my brain around. We've all been programmed over the years to think of debt as bad. We've also been programmed to think 20% is an almost absurd return, especially on something stable. It's hard for me to visualize how a permanent 20% would be sustainable down the road. Especially once it grows to epic proportions. At some point, wouldn't there need to be a way to "contract" the money supply? Like I said, I don't have a good enough understanding of economics to figure out the answer to this myself.

Just thinking aloud here....would a 10 year lock with a permanent burn of the principle at the end be worth considering? So you lock in say $1M, get 25% interest a year (that's $2.5M total interest without any compounding), and then the original $1M gets burned. I don't know. It just seems like eventually the "money supply" will get too big at which point it will be difficult, if not impossible, to hold the peg.

Like I said, I'm pretty limited in my understanding of how money supply works. Can you tell me where I'm wrong?

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Sure you are taught to think 20% is not sustainable because you were use to world where growth is limited. What happens if Hive grows at 50% annually for 2 decades? Do not think this is possible? What is the growth of the Interet, users, nodes, server space, etc? Look at the growth of stock transactions due to automation.

People's overall lack if understand of how money impacts the economy is where they go wrong.

How is growth generated? Where does it come from? How is it paid for?

It comes from the innvoation of people. Yet do they not require payment? Arent materials for plants, prototypes, and computers all costing money? What happens if you get an influx of money in your company, could you grow it more? Why do people not think this is the case with an economy as a whole?

If you want Hive to grow, the money needs to be there for growth. Money is not wealth, it is a tool for wealth. Wealth comes from business, commerce, and all the innovation tied to it.

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That's going to be a bit of a stretch for some people. Especially given the burn that many of them saw on tokens like LUNA and stuff like that. I think Hive is definitely safer to do a time lock than some of the other ones, but like I said, I think a lot of people are going to be hesitant. I think it looks great on paper, but that human factor is so unpredictable.

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Not even comparible. There is already a time lock on Hive with HBD of 3 days. We are just giving community projects the option of locking it up permanently.

Nothing is really burned. It is similar to the HBD in the DHF, it is not really circulating isnce so little is released each day.

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I don't think you understood what I was saying. We have already seen that people don't like locking things up for long periods of time. Hence the constant requests to change the power down period. That coupled with the recent hits on locked assets that people have taken and many of them are on edge. It might make them skittish about locking up HBD for longer no matter how safe or good of an idea it might be.

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Time locked vaults align with possible solution for another problem. Currently when you pay from your account, you are exposed. Basically you are wearing your balance tattooed on your forehead. It might be ok-ish for online transactions, but in physical world it might be dangerous in some areas (and these are also areas that could benefit the most from adopting HBD for payments as alternative for local currency).

Coins that use addresses as balances cloud overall wealth of a person that uses them for payments. We could have the same in Hive. Of course it would require new operations and special representation of such disconnected balance, but it should not be hard to code. One thing that would need to be introduced - since such balances are not associated with any stake, transfers could not be "paid with RC", regular fee would be needed.
Such balance could easily be supplemented with "time of unlock", only becoming transferable after given date. The interest on the locked HBD would be printed upfront, already on the balance. This way even if witnesses decide to change the interest rate later, it would not affect such long-term deposit in any way, no special code required.


I really don't get the permanent time vault. Especially how the interest rate would be handled. It surely cannot be fixed, because we don't know future market conditions, so what is just right for now now might be insufficient or far to much when conditions change. On the other hand if the rate was to be subject to witness decision, who would be willing to use such mechanism? Third option, ability to "unfreeze" the permanent vault when rate changes (within certain time window after the change - miss that and you've implicitly accepted new rate) seems most legit but it would put another hard burden on witnesses (on top of market conditions to consider when setting rate, they'd now also have to predict human behavior after unlocking a lot of HBD).

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Permanent doesnt get unlocked.

That is the idea. It is locked in for community projects like Ragnarok. This is not altering the other ideas of savings or time vaults where one has the ability to unlock his or her HBD.

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Apart from that, I think it would also be beneficial to get an exhibitor and bring together the best of web 2.0 to web 3.0, that would generate more income and inventions in Hive, it would be the impulse that would be missing, of course I am sure that nobody will agree but you have to open the mind and take the best of everything. and evolve.

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I can see how this could work for loans.

One could delegate interest payments to the lender for a certain amount. During the payback period, the borrower would not be able to withdraw the principal. The borrower could also make payments to free up the collateral sooner.

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The idea is golden. Hopefully we can come up incentives to get everyone involved. I wish a project like that allow everyone with Hive best interest to acquire more #hive for the purpose of benefitting the community and the holders. As a one way action we have no worry for pump and dump.

!PIZZA

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I think that is a great way to do things and it would make it easier to believe in projects as well. After all, everyone can view the HBD and how it is being released to pay for all the development/maintenance happening.

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Exactly! Remember when I was pitching you an HBD savings delegation system a few weeks ago? Just having something similar like that will open so many more doors of utility and increases TVL at the same time in regards to HBD.

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What I want is a way for my HBD Savings(cold wallet) interest payments to pay out to another account (hot wallet).

@blocktrades how feasible would that be?

bonus ping: @andablackwidow

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#greatmindsthinkalike, it would be nice to be able to 'delegate' portions of that HBD to a different account. This would open up the ability to start subscription based businesses on top of Hive. Or we can help people in general, or support content creators, or raise HBD for charity. etc.

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