Independently Indebted
My in-laws are moving to a serviced apartment this month, after pulling the trigger and making the decision that they should do it before they can't do it themselves. I respect that, as they have handled nearly everything themselves so they don't have to be a burden on their daughters. It makes them feel better about it, making it their independent choice, something that they value highly.
Independence is something that most people value, as long as it works in their favor. Most people want to make their decisions when the outcome is a success, yet want protection when their decisions fail.
Fairweather independence.
I think there is more and more of this now, which I suspect is largely being driven by the consumer economy, as people are making their purchasing decisions, but not worrying about the debt they are racking up. It is like it doesn't even register that there is debt at all, which could be in part to the ease at which it is to not only get lines of credit, but also spend through various channels.
This is something that has been on my radar for a long time, however it was highlighted again to me yesterday, as I talked with one of the mothers from the kids' birthday party Smallsteps attended. While the children were together with the hosts, I had 45 minutes to kill and asked if the mother wanted to join me for a coffee, which she did, after doing some shopping. While I had spoken to her before, I don't actually know her, so we ended up doing the where are you from and what do you do dance for a bit.
When I eventually asked her what she did, she was hesitant to say, which I joked about because I had already suggested the reason she had moved so much as a kid was because her parents were involved in criminal activity. It was funny, and not as weird as it sounds. But, she said that the reason she was hesitant, was because she works for a large debt collection agency, and some people don't respond positively to her saying.
However, this isn't a company like you see in the movies with heavies of the bookies who break knees to chase gambling debts, it is just a company that collects on the debts when the company involved is unable to chase it. She asked if I knew the company and said, "Of course! I have missed bills from time to time to."
Debt can come in many forms, where for instance when we moved house a few years ago, some information didn't update to all companies in the system, and bills were being sent to the wrong address, but not getting forwarded to the right one. So, the first I would hear about it, was when a collection agency would track down the right address. Shit happens.
But, as I said in the conversation with the mother, a debt collection agency is chasing debt, it isn't chasing savings, and a lot of what they are chasing is from people who have managed their finances poorly. Especially when the cost of living expenses are up and times are tough, the collection agencies are going to be the bad guys that don't understand the situation, but that is normally not the case. A lot of the debt is consumer spending on unnecessariness, which after the expanding interest payments, will see the necessities fall into arrears also, requiring taking on more debt.
It is called a debt cycle for a reason.
Financial independence shouldn't be seen as what you can spend, it should be seen as what you can save or invest. A lot of people feel "financially secure" in the good times, spending freely, but when the economy inevitably turns, they find themselves struggling, and increasingly so if they are going to try and maintain their fairweather independence. However, real financial independence would mean being able to generate increasing value in the lowest of times also, even if it isn't much. At the very least, it should be about being able to maintain position and ride out the rough seas, anchored in a safe harbor until the storms pass and the growth journey can continue again.
Independence is about being able to make one's own decisions, but also be able to wear the consequences and ramifications of those decisions. A lot of people over the last decade or two have chosen to spend rather than prepare for the future, and as personal economy situations degraded, they found themselves unable to grow or maintain, but instead slide further into the claws of debt. There is a huge amount to purchase these days and a lot of it brings no value to the financial health of the individual. not all spending is the same, as the return is going to differ.
For instance at work the other day, we were talking about buying a Porsche, or the reasons not to. For pretty much everyone at the table, no matter the amount of money they had, they wouldn't. However, if I had a massive amount, I might, because with the rest of it I would be able to earn that value back anyway. But, since I am not interested in cars much, I still probably wouldn't buy something like that, because it won't bring me any satisfaction. I don't care what people think of me who care about what kind of car I drive, and I don't care if strangers down the street look at my car or not. There is no value at all in a "status car" for me, though there might be some for someone else.
However, while we might not ever be in a position to dump cash on a new Porsche, we all tend to buy a lot of stuff at a lower price point that doesn't return anything much in terms of value, like subscription services to streaming content, clothes, restaurants, food, various brands, electronics - whatever. It is not that all of this is valueless, but how many of us really build a hierarchy matrix and discover how meaningful it is to our own lives?
What would be interesting to know is how much of the debt people carry is "necessary" debt and how much has been facilitated by unnecessary purchases. For instance, I know many people who have bought what would be considered by most, luxury cars on finance. There is nothing wrong with that of course, but if it is a decision made in the good times but is unsustainable in the bad times, and the length of the contract is going to extend into the bad, was it a good decision?
Many bought overpriced houses during the start of the pandemic in an economy that had government decisions taking on enormous amounts of debt, which is of course going to impact on inflation. This means that it was entirely predictable that the response to inflation was going to be an increase in the interest rates, making what was the cheapest cost of debt in history, significantly higher. When people took their housing maximums in the interest rate fairweather times, they are making a decision that is going to be subject to interest rates for the next 20-40 years, perhaps more in some countries.
They made the decision.
And over the last few years that the weather has turned, they are of course going to struggle as their debt obligation percentage increases, whilst simultaneously other costs of living are increasing, driven by degrading global political conditions, which are of course, part of the overall plan of the governments to maintain or increase what they value - control.
Which is interesting, because the more people tend to make their own financial decisions, the more they tend to spend on non-generative purchases and ultimately, their independence erodes away and they become more controlled, slaves to the debt cycle, reliant on handouts and people to look after them.
There is a cost to independence, but often, it isn't until the fairweather becomes stormy, that the collectors come to demand payment.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
This is IMHO one of the things that should be taught in school. But sometimes I think that other interests came on the top of that... The interest of being "in jailed" on a hamster wheel... Running everyday and every hour, giving away the most precious assent that we really own in this "world": Time; for a promise of a better wage, and better car or house that we will never truly own.
It kind of disrupts me to see so much financial illiteracy, and I don't consider myself has a person that knows how to generate increasing value of "my" things.
I don't put faith in the school systems to teach about generating wealth, because they are organized by institutions that don't want that.
I am not great at it either. However, it is better to pay attention and try something, rather than resign to doing nothing.
You are totally right about the true purpose of institutions... "creating" a dependent profile in future generations.
Yes, you can be sure that is better to "walk" then to "stay" on a site that it is not what it grants the most
Dear @tarazkp !
I agree with you!
By the way, I'm curious to know which area you are investing in for your happy future!😃
I am investing into my daughter for happiness. Into a few other things for money.
Wow! So much to grasp from this post. You have successfully captured the tough reality of financial independence. Many people have fallen into the trap called “debt" even without realizing it, as a result of financial independence. Where you said people become more controlled and slaves to debt cycle resonates deeply and it's unfortunate that such a cycle is hard to break. This reminds us of how much we should be careful when making financial decisions, before we are hit with storms of life. It is really necessary!
Thanks for sharing
Yes, and unable to follow their own consciences for fear of losing their jobs, and hence, nearly everything. It's awful. We see more and more of this as the years pass, but recent events since 2020 are freshest in my mind. How many of us did what we did not want to do, both as medical practitioners and as patients? We are slaves to our credit scores, a mere number as meaningless as the numbers on our bank account statements.
I have counseled my daughters to live within their means, and to carry zero in credit card debt. I hope to pay off one of their mortgages and, in so doing, hold her mortgage myself. If her job says "do this or you are fired" she can say no. My interest in the property will transfer to her upon my death, so she never pays the principle (which becomes an untaxed inheritance), and no one pays capital gains taxes.
Think outside of the box! Keep as much of your money as you can in the family, not in a bank!
I sure would hate to have that poor woman's job. She is, as described above, doing a job she hates, is embarrassed of, just to keep afloat financially.
I would love to one day be able to buy an apartment in my daughter's name and any income it makes would go to her, and of course anything else I own after I die. Here a house is a taxed inheritance unfortunately. It is pretty crazy how much tax the governments can claim, and then grossly misuse the income that people have worked so hard all their lives for.
Dear me! So if someone inherits a house, they must come up with loads of money to keep it?! That's not right. It's a lot like Kamala Harris' brilliant idea to tax Americans on unrealized gains. Many of us would lose our homes while we were still living in them, nothing to be done but sell it. Then all those houses would flood the market, but only the rich would be able to buy even the least expensive of houses.
debt is a big problem, govs n many countries like Japan, US, most EU countries r a bad example with debt above 100% of GDP, govs policies n facilitating debt for citizens isn't meant to b n citizens' favor -rather it's n companies favor where u become n debt to have the money to buy their products- they don't care as long as they r getting money, it's an evil game that's made worse with ads which is a psychological game not easy to resist by most- that's what companies & countries behind it do, basic needs of citizens from public education, public healthcare to basic income, public housing should b met & hence debt won't b needed, 1 exception is loans for opening businesses that can return profits & even here strict rules, detailed plans, strict surveillance, the right persons n the right positions from the main managers & downward.
I am old - write in full words :)
wow despite being new on hive i've been commenting on other sites for some 15 years or so, writing that way since i can remember- yet this is the 1st time someone is complaining about the way i write, haha totally unexpected tbh "to be honest" reminds me of the famous Finn "Kemi Raikkonen" + son i'm not that young either haha, seriously speaking i'm not old on hive, checking how it works & that kind of stuff, last week i was looking for some interesting and useful posts that i can interact with, share serious thoughts, point of views, ideas & believes, 1 of ur "your" posts was on the most viewed posts, i read it, i found the article really good, i made a serious >10 lines comment or so & said i need to read more of those articles, i did read maybe 5 articles, did some serious >10 lines comment on each & said i'll probably read those article on a daily base, then i read ur "your" wow unexpected reply & still i'll probably read those articles on a daily base & make some serious 10 lines comments wen "when" i've time. good articles continue. f "if" u "you" had the time & could read my comments on ur "your" previous posts any serious point of views, thoughts, believes, discussion -would b "be" appreciated
I had never heard the term "serviced apartment" before and went down a rabbit hole researching to learn more about it. Very interesting.
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My buddy works for a debt collection agency and I think they definitely get a bad rap. It's interesting the stories he tells and how people react to his calls. I think a lot of people don't realize they aren't calling you to take away your stuff, they are calling you to help you figure out a way to keep your stuff. At least his position anyway.
I think we have similar companies here as well. Financial instutions such as banks sell the debts (uncollectible receivables) to those companies at a lower price than their value. They then try any way to cash the debt, at a higher price than they bought the debt.
Honestly I get why she was kinda shy to tell you have job title and description, although love the movie expression though "Debt collector" 🤣🤣🤣. Nevertheless Debt is a big issue steming out of people indiscipline, greed, keeping up with their pairs, poor identification of emergency and poor planning altogether that's exactly what keeps people slave to Debt.
The solution is just to accept the truth about their lifestyle and change, debt isn't fun in anyway. Thanks for addressing this.
For me cars itself are liabilities because you have to take care of it like a child, and am not ready for that yet i rather use those cash flow for something that will elevate me forward than use it to own something that would chock me one day if i stop taking care of it, so yah you absolutely right about cars. The thing though is just to be contented with what you have most folks dont get this though