RE: LeoThread 2024-12-31 17:40
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Funny that Peter and Paul in the Bible are very clear of what wretches they were. Saul over saw the persecution of many Christians. Peter denied Jesus three times.
There is no where in the Bible that shows Mary to be flawed or a sinner.
It appears logical to me that God would want Jesus' home to be without sin. Especially carnal sin.
The only reference of her doing anything that Jesus did not want was to turn the water to wine.
Sons often do things they do not want to please their mother.
On another note, do Adventists believe that Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael?
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Yes absolutely. I can break it down biblically if you'd like....But let's focus on Mary again.
Joshua showed no sin in the written books of the bible. But was he 'holy'?
All have sinned literally means...All have sinned. It doesn't mean all but with the exception of Christ and Mary. The only person in the bible that is said to have lived a perfect life is Christ.
Can we agree on that?
Joshua compared to Mary is apples to oranges.
I agree Jesus led a perfect life but I am undecided on Mary.
Hard to believe the Church that was built on Peter was that far off base, especially with the apparitions of the Virgin Mary being undeniable.
Have you looked into the appearances of Our Lady of Fatima or Our Lady of Guadalupe?
That's an interpretation thing.
'Rock' is scripture always points to Jesus. That verse you are referring to, in my prayerful study of scripture, points to Jesus not Peter.
Upon this rock I will build my church. The rock being Christ. And I know, Peter is greek means rock. But throughout the bible we constantly see Jesus being the rock, the chief cornerstone etc.
A lot of those appearances to me seem very spiritualism based. The story of Samuel / Saul and the witch of Endor come to mind.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 says the dead know nothing, so a 'ghost' or apparition is suspect to me.
This one seems pretty straight forward to me.
Matt 16:17
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Absolutely.
Now we ask...What was Jesus confirming that Peter stated?
He was asking who Simon thinks he is? He calls him the Christ. And Christ call him Petros (Greek for rock). Referring to Peter as the foundation of where he builds his church. He does not build it upon himself. We the people are the Church and Jesus is the head of the Church.
The head of the church, amen to that.
To me this is where we once again rely on man, rather than Christ. How could be possibly build a church upon a man? Man is fallible. Sinful.
Christ is holy. And throughout the bible, He is constantly referred to as the rock and cornerstone.
So if we accept your argument that we build upon Peter...What do we do with the rest of the bible calling Christ the rock?
My argument? These are Jesus' words. He literally changed Simon's name to rock (Petros). Why did he change it to rock? Jesus is perfect and precise about the words he speaks.
OK but what do we do with the rock being referred to as Christ in the rest of scripture?
All depends on the context like any other words used in multiple situations.
Just like Jesus in Luke 10:18 says he saw Satan fall from heaven. Here he is referring to the Devil.
Does that make Simon Peter the Devil when Jesus tells him, "get behind me Satan"?
In that context he is using Satan as being his adversary as Peter since Peter thinks like a human and does not understand God's plan. Peter is wanting to not let them harm Jesus.
Exactly. I agree completely. Context is key!
Now put that into when Jesus says 'upon this Rock' I will build my church. The entire narrative is Christ is king and the head of the church.
LOL NO! It is a direct statement to Peter.
Of course Christ is King but each of the 24 Catholic churches have different structures.
For example the 1st pope of the Coptic Church was St. Mark.
Peter was the Pope of the Roman Catholics.
All of Christianity was Catholic up until Martin Luther and he was deceived by his financiers. He even wrote a book about them called What To Do With The Jews and Their Lies. Not very Christian what he wrote but if you read the Talmud it is understandable.
It was direct to apostles, saying that Christ is the head of the church.
Acts 4:11 for example. Peter clearly states that Christ is the cornerstone / rock and that people have rejected him. This is Peter, who should have said 'i am the rock' right? If we follow your line of thinking?
Check history, you will see that the direct line of apostles kept the hebrew bible with them and the gospels way before Luther. The protestant reformation happened in Europe....But the true apostolic church was there when they all fled Jerusalem in 70 AD. All history.
No, Simon should be humble, and when Jesus changes his name from Simon to Peter should accept his leadership role. All churches have leaders.
My line of thinking is not relevant here at all.
The Apostles preached in the Synagogue until they were banished. They were Jews and kept to their traditions with the corrections of Christ.
Agreed, the Apostolic Church dates back to Jesus sending the Apostles out to fish for men with instructions on how to do it.
I really don't understand how someone interprets, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Are you saying when Jesus says in John 1 41-42 that Simon will be called Cephas (Peter in Greek) that Jesus is referring to himself and every time Jesus calls Simon, Peter, he is referring to himself?
So for the entire bible we see rock = Christ. Even in Acts like I mentioned (Peter even claimed it was Christ, not him)
But one verse is supposed to to make people believe that Peter is the head of the church?
Or, maybe....It's a misinterpretation of what that verse truly says. And what Jesus was showing to his followers?
Why did Jesus rename him Peter if Peter really meams Jesus?
Simon Peter......Was his name in Matthew 4.....Way before 'the rock' debate.
Your logic seems like pure deception. This changes the entire meaning of the Bible. You are saying the name Cephas/Peter/Petros always refers to Jesus. That is totally illogical.
LOL Deception?
I just said the ENTIRE bible shows us Christ = Rock. Peter even says it in Acts 4:11....Christ = Rock.
How exactly is that deception?
Anywho. Here's a fundamental difference between Protestant and Catholic right here :)
I would think the fundamental difference is that Adventist use the Jewish Sabbath.
It's not the 'Jewish sabbath'...
Genesis 2:3
I would recommend making the time to watch this in response.
Yeah I know Sam. He's not what I would call the most knowledgable when it comes to the bible.
I know the arguments. I literally wasn't born into this church, I did my homework and from Genesis to Revelation, there is zero scripture that says the sabbath was changed.
You can do biblical gymnastics, which he does by calling the sabbath in Genesis 2 not a real day because there was no evening and morning lol I mean....Come on.
But if you love Christ, you keep his commandments. Which means all 10.
Heck the catholic church even got rid of a commandment (idol worship) and split the 10th into 2. lol
So the first 1500 years of Christianity was practiced incorrectly and went against Jesus' guidance?
The solution is to protest and start churches that do not believe in transubstantiation?
How do SDA followers understand John 6:50-70?
Google the Waldensians...that's how church survived. Direct from the apostles...Without going near Alexandria.
Transubstaniation....The catholic idea that you are literally eating the flesh of Jesus and his blood every week?
I put that right up there with the non-biblical concept of purgatory.
See that's a warped concept and anti biblical in itself.
What does scripture say about blood?
Life is in the blood.
Do a tiny little bible study on how we arent supposed to touch blood in our diet....But according to the catholic church you are supposed to guzzle it every week?
Come on lol
You are calling the word's of Jesus warped?
John 6 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Again....Just a small itty bitty study of the ENTIRE bible will reveal amazing things.
The flesh = the word = the bible. Eat it daily!
The blood = life = Jesus is the way the truth and the LIFE.
That's not our Savior telling us to physically eat and drink his body lol
This is not a lol thing, this is what he literally says and his followers understood it as well and it is pointed to reason so many left him. I have never had the Holy Eucharist as I am not a baptized Catholic but it sure does seem crystal clear and was the practice of all the churches for 1500 years.
It has also been studied under a microscope in the Eucharist miracle in Poland a few years ago.
AB+ blood, the universal receiver, and also resembled the flesh of the heart of a male in his 30's.
I asked my wife, a pediatric cardiologist, if age can be approximated that way and she confirmed it can be.
Ok, we've drilled my beliefs for a bit....How about you explain the catholic church changing the 10 commandments?
I will make an entire post dedicated to it. Is there anything else besides idolatry you believe has been changed in the 10 commandments? Let me know and I will get started on it after my notes on the Eucharist.
Let's go with removing the second commandment and splitting the 10th for now ;)
The Church removed the 10th Commandment?
Not as far as I am aware of, Jesus sometimes performed healing and other acts on the Sabbath, which led to criticism from some religious leaders of the time to the point of calling for his stoning. Jesus emphasized the importance of doing good and meeting human needs, suggesting a broader interpretation of keeping the Sabbath holy.
I have an entire about why Sunday is the Sabbath. https://inleo.io/@grandpapulse/why-the-catholic-church-observes-sunday-as-the-sabbath--8tq?referral=grandpapulse
They removed the second commandment.
Split the 10th into 2 commandments.
I'll check out the blog, thanks for the link.
And absolutely...We are to do good on the Sabbath! Just as Jesus did.
Guzzled? The wafer is dipped in and mass is daily not weekly.
Makes zero sense.
But hey, tradition right?
Wonder what Jesus says about tradition....
It is direct from Jesus' mouth unless you have some way of explaining away John 6 50-70.
just did my man...
flesh = word = the bible
blood = life = jesus is the way, truth and life.
question, jesus speaks in parables and examples his entire ministry, why is this the only thing that is taken literally?
You are saying Jesus spoke in parables only?
When Jesus tells his Apostles he will give them the power to drive out demons and to heal people, he is not being literal?
No one comes to the Father except through me...is not literal?
Shall I continue with the many examples of Jesus speaking literally?
All the Apostles were wrong when they taught the Eucharist as transforming into Jesus's flesh and blood when consumed during mass?
Finally in the 1,500 after leaving Catholic Rite and creating a new church they git it right?
I am off to make some notes for a post tomorrow pertaining to the Eucharist and then to bed.
God bless you and have a good night.
Oh not at all. He spoke literally and in parables for sure.
But yeah man, something to dig into deeper.
Have a good night! God bless.
Maybe deception is not the right word. Maybe bad translation is better.
Jesus changes Simon's name to Peter, so everytime he says Peter he really means Jesus?
Where was Peter first referred to as Peter?
Before or after Peter claimed Jesus was the Son of God?
What is the difference if every time Jesus says rock/Peter he is truly referring Jesus?
The difference is.....One church puts a man at the head of it, while the bible shows us that Christ is the head of the church.
Roman Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ and that is who the Vatican says started the church. Nowhere in Catholicism is Peter said to have started the church.
The fact that you think that the 160+ times the name Peter is used in the Bible is referring to Jesus seems totally off the wall to me.
Of course it was used, that was his name...Simon Peter.
I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying, find (with a corcordance) all the times a Rock in scripture is referred to as the head cornerstone / Christ.
Don't take my word for it, dig for yourself.
Except for when the founder of the Catholic faith, Jesus, Calls Peter the rock. This only signifies that after Christ leaves to be in his father's side that Peter will be the head of it, as in the Bishop of Rome. The head of the Catholic Churches since the beginning is Jesus.
Can you show me somewhere in any of the Catholic Rites that something to the contrary?
Adventists have some type of governance structure?
Each Catholic Church has a different structure, There are seven different churches and 24 different rites in the Catholic faith.
The Byzantines use a governance of 12 men and make decisions together but that is not how the first church ran things. The first Church Jesus sat at the head of the table, literally and figuratively.
I am just learning but the Coptic's have their Pope who is also called the Bishop of Alexandria. Like the in the Latin Rites he is the physical human head/leader of their Church but the head of all the Catholic Churches is Jesus Christ, as far as I know.
Not really, no governance structure per se. It's done by conferences, where each geographical conference is responsible for that part of the world. The leader of the Adventist church is Christ.
As for the Rock argument...Man, we'll just have to disagree on that one. I'll never see from the entire bible how Christ is called the rock everywhere but Catholics take one time in scripture as gospel.
I just cant see it, and it's much easier for me to see the bible as a whole...Not just one verse.
I am really not sure what the disagreement is as the Catholic Church specifically states that Jesus Christ started the church.
Right, because he's the ROCK ;)
Now what do you do with all the times Simon is called Petros?
This is where we disagree.
Upon this ROCK is Jesus. Not Peter.
But alas....This is why Protestants and Catholics dont see eye to eye. lol
For the record. I mean no disrespect with this convo. I'm just fascinated by the difference between Catholic and Protestant beliefs. It's a conversation I enjoy having, hopefully you don't take it as me being disrespectful, I'm just trying to discuss it.
What is better than discussing the Lord? No disrespect taken nor meant. My wife and I talk Jesus all the time. When moving back to Nicaragua we chose Matagalpa because I wanted to pursue the only local Orthodox Church in the country. I figured they were the closest to the original Christians.
Then the apparitions of Mary were revealed to me,
6 or 7 of the Priests in the local diocese are gringos.
A message from my guardian angel?
Jesus is clear not to stop anyone that is doing good in his name.
I was raised Presbyterian, fell into agnostic/atheist beliefs for decades of darkness filled with sin, then to Evangelism (which seems way off from what God teaches) to going through Catechism for the Roman Catholic Church.
The Church that seems to be breaking harder than most as a see alter girls at the local Cathedral.
Remember Jesus commands us to love each other, even those that do us harm.
Not that I think you are trying to do any harm here.
I try to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me.
Amen and amen!
Nah never that. I don't think for a second my belief is the only way to God. Our faith states that the majority of those saved, won't be from out church.
This is just me discussing different beliefs.
Agreed but the Roman Catholic Church is firm on they are the only way. Which means all the other churches are wrong. The Coptic Church, one of the originals, first Pope was Mark. Their history and worship is very interesting. They even have oil brought to them by Mark that was blessed by Jesus. A tiny amount goes into each new anointed oil. Truly the oldest churches history are amazing.
Yup, that's the fundamental different between catholicism and protestantism....One says the church is infallible the other says the bible is infallible.
Church history truly is remarkable!
Christ in Revelation makes it clear that the Church is far from infallible. Jesus says the church will be on the verge of totally breaking and we are getting closer.
This is another reason for my conversion.
It is up to the people to revive the church.
Now we suffer under Jewish hegemony and the people think Israel of the Bible is a place on the map.
SMH but this is where we are and all we can do is follow Christ and pray.
I believe it is obvious that the Devil is in his short season.
Just think, the next Pope will probably be worse than the current one.
Women Priest and gay marriages are up next.
Agreed with that for sure.
Lots of tricks being pulled for all of God's people in these last days for sure.
That's something my church battles with all the time....Women's ordination. But like you said, the breaking away will be swift and prominent.
yep devil in short season
well humans are behind some things so we should expect difference in opinions but facts is something science seeks so merging science with religion is very good
Have you studied the Protestant Reformation during the 16th century?
It will shine light on the differences that caused the seperation.
Very much so.
Pretty much why I'm Protestant. Sola scriptura :)
awesome.
Glad you have an understanding of your faith.